by Arthur Worsley
M.A. Psychology, Oxford. McKinsey Alum. Founder & Editor at TAoL.
M.A. Psychology, Oxford. McKinsey Alum. Founder & Editor at TAoL.
Jeff Sanders is a productivity guru, healthy habits expert and podcasting pro whose award-winning, self-development focussed 5 AM Miracle podcast has been downloaded over 9 million times.Find him at JeffSanders.com [/col] [/row]
Jeff Sanders Interview (Video)
- 0:00 – Intro & Jeff’s journey to podcasting success
- 6:40 – Jeff’s best (and worst) podcast guests
- 10:30 – The magic of thinking BIG
- 12:25 – The power of thinking on paper
- 13:26 – The first draft of anything is sh*t
- 16:05 – Repetition, rework and making mistakes
- 17:59 – Goal overwhelm and leaning into what you love
- 23:40 – Healthy eating and plant-based diets
- 32:30 – Experiments in intermittent fasting
- 34:47 – Meditation and reconnecting with your body
- 37:59 – Jeff’s favourite healthy snack (he’s obsessed!)
- 39:45 – Arthur’s favourite healthy snack (I’m obsessed!)
- 40:27 – Tactics for staying productive (and sane) working from home
- 52:10 – The 2-3 keystone habits Jeff swears by
- Visit Jeff’s website: JeffSanders.com
- Listen to Jeff’s podcast: The 5 AM Miracle
- Read Jeff’s book: The 5 AM Miracle
Full Interview TranscriptArthur Worsley: Hi everyone, it’s Arthur here from the Art of Living. I’m going to look in the right direction for the camera. Super excited this morning to be talking to Jeff Sanders from The 5 AM Miracle, he’s a productivity guru, a keynote speaker, an author, he’s got an amazing podcast which has had over nine million downloads that you’ve been doing for five and a half years now, is that right? Jeff Sanders: Seven and a half years now. Arthur Worsley: Seven and a half, I looked on Apple and was like, how long has this been going on? And it gave up after 2015. Jeff Sanders: It did. Arthur Worsley: So that’s amazing. I was just saying before we got on the call, you sent me a list of talking points, there are so many different things where we overlap. I want to talk about the fact that you’re a plant-based marathon runner, I want to talk about your intermittent fasting, I want to talk about your podcasting, I want to talk about all sorts of things, and also how you got to where you are, and some of the obstacles you’ve gone through. It’s always interesting talking to a productivity expert because there’s a meta-level of reflection on what it took to get to where you are. So, for people who don’t know you, who have never heard of you before, tell us a little bit about yourself and, in your own words, how you describe what you do, and what is different about Jeff. Jeff Sanders: That’s a great question. You kind of hit on a few of those big topics there, I think a large part of the way… I think of myself as just someone who really loves to do personal experiments, that’s kind of how I got into productivity, to begin with. I think that, what I really wanted when I graduated college, was to figure out where do I fit in the world because I didn’t know at that point. I graduated with a degree in theatre, but I didn’t want to be an actor. So I was like, what do I do with my life now? I considered film school but was like, that costs too much money. What’s my path forward? So I discovered personal growth, at that point, and realized that’s what would really open the doors for me to understand more about myself, and how the world works, and where I fit into all of that. For me, the only real way to learn about all of these things that were going on was to do personal experiments. So I was running marathons, trying a plant-based diet, launching a side business, and then all of these things eventually kind of all merged together into the full-time business that I now do. But that wasn’t the plan, I was just trying a lot of random stuff, and now that random stuff is my life and career. Now I speak about those things, I write books on them, have podcasts about them. So most of what my life now entails, is those main topics of productivity, healthy habits, personal growth, and then figuring out how I can help other people to really just to improve in all of those areas, while I myself am testing new things at the same time. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, amazing. I think that’s how a lot of people get into it. I’m curious, it’s always interesting to hear about people’s first side business. What was the first side business? Did it work out, or is it something- Jeff Sanders: I guess, technically, I had a side business when I was… I had a paper route when I was 14 years old, but really the first foray into doing a side business is the precursor to what I do now. So it’s just a side blog where I was trying to make some money with AdSense and that was right after college. So that was my first kind of testing the waters of what was out there, that’s also when I launched my first podcast that went all of three episodes before my brother emailed me and asked when I would stop doing this awful thing because it was a really bad show. I realized, as an experiment, I knew that there was potential, I just didn’t know what it would look like when I did it well. So it wasn’t until years later that I launched my current show, but that was… I think for me, that’s what I’m looking for, those little test vehicles of what would give me insight into something so that later on I can discover if I want to lean into that really intensely, or just let it go. Arthur Worsley: I hear that people always get very fixated on setting goals early on, and I know you’re a big fan of goal setting. Anyone is, goal setting is super important. I know you think mainly in 90 days and setting days up to success, but I think there’s so much about gathering data before you set goals. You have to try, there’s this scary thing around it, what’s the one thing that you need to do. People are like, I need to find my one thing. I’m like, the only way you find your one thing, is by trying a whole… You have to have a very light, thin layer of experiments and then find a winner, then you back it. You do this venture capital or pharmaceutical industry side with a big portfolio. That’s very cool. I personally think of myself as I love writing. Writing is how I think and how I get stuff out, but you’ve got a podcast agency that you just started in Nashville, is that right? And hundreds of episodes on this podcast. So you’re very much a voice, a voice focussed person, but you’re obviously also an author. What made you decide to stick with the podcast thing once you’d started it up? Jeff Sanders: Well, I think that my background in theatre really taught me that I want to do something that involves performance, something that involves me getting out there and using my voice, or physicality, or something. That’s why I considered film school, and then after I dropped that idea, it was maybe I do radio, but then I discovered podcasting just as a consumer, someone just listening and wanting to learn more. My first few podcasts, I was listening to it thinking, I can do this, I can do this well if I really lean into it. So I thought that if I combined my love for technology, my love for learning, my performance background, those things fit really well together as a podcast. I didn’t expect my podcast to do as well as it did, but when it took off in those first couple of years, it really set the stage for all the other things that I now do. So whenever I talk about who is Jeff Sanders, what do you do? The podcast is almost the first thing that I mention because that’s what leads everything else. That wasn’t the plan, but that was something that I knew, if I leaned into this, and it combines those elements of things that fit me, well surely it’s going to do okay. That was the thought, and then it did. So I think that idea and experimentation did pay off. Arthur Worsley: Fantastic. You do have a great voice. You meet some people, you’re like, oh you definitely couldn’t do radio or podcast. I feel like I can sit here and listen to you on adverts and backing tracks, all that kind of stuff. It’s like that guy who did the Big Brother house, or there’s that amazing video of that homeless guy on the side of the road with a golden voice and they get him to speak, it’s just amazing. Very, very cool. So tell me a little bit about some of you… I don’t really think of myself as a podcaster, I just love connecting with interesting people. The first couple of people I connected happened to be Brian Tracy and David Allen because if I could speak to anyone, who would I speak to. I was like, okay well, I’ll just email those guys and see what happens. So one of my favourite things about this medium is you get to connect with these really interesting people and have great conversations. Can you think of a couple of your favourite conversations that you’ve had? Either recently or over the course of the whole podcast. Jeff Sanders: I have interviewed over 200 people, there’s a lot of guests I’ve had on the show. David Allen is one of them, Bob Proctor was one that’s kind of in that same space of people that are in personal growth. I think the biggest name of a guy I interviewed was Deepak Chopra, but I can tell you straight up that Deepak was one of the worst guests I ever had. I hope he’s not listening to this interview right now, but he was awful. I think it really showed to me, the connection is amazing, but connecting with the right people that fit you and what you’re doing is way more important than anything else. I’ve interviewed a lot of cool people in the past, Dean Karnazes was one of my favourites because he is the writer of the book Ultra Marathon Man, a bunch of others, as well. He’s run a lot of big marathons and, for me, he was an idol in my world of wanting to run marathons and be healthy. So interviewing him was incredible because of he kind of reinforced those visions I had of who is this guy? Talking to him, connecting with him, it kind of proved that there are amazing human beings out there. Talking to them just, it brings out so many amazing aspects of myself, where I can talk to people who are just doing things so well. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, yeah. It’s amazing, it gives you incredible license to reach out to people. I write a lot of book summaries and after I finished, I type a message out to these authors and I’m like, hey, I just read a summary of your book. People you would otherwise never have… People are very open and friendly, the best people. You email them and they’re like, yeah, absolutely I’d love to jump on that. Jump in the call, have a conversation. That’s very cool. There’s sort of a self-development lens, but something you talk a lot about, as well, is healthy habits. You’re obviously a healthy guy, have you done any ultramarathons or just marathons? Jeff Sanders: I’ve done a few ultra marathons, but not the intense ones. My goal is to do the Leadville, Colorado 100 mile ultramarathon, that’s on my bucket list. I’m not there yet, but the longest race I’ve done is about 40 miles. So I have gone beyond the marathon, yeah. Arthur Worsley: The Leadville, Colorado one, remind me. That’s the one which just has incredible climbs and descents – Jeff Sanders: Yeah, there’s enormous amounts of altitude change. You’re starting already at 7000 feet, two or three thousand meters, it’s really, really high up. Then you go from there and you scale enormous mountains up and down, over the course of 100 miles. So it’s not as if it’s a short race at all, it’s an enormously challenging one. To me, that’s the pinnacle of what it means to… If you’re going to set an ambitious goal, you may as well set that goal to be at the top and push for that. In my pursuit of even thinking about that, I ran further and trained harder, and I just feel like that’s just such a big aspect of goal achievement, too. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, definitely. There’s that old saying: “Aim for the stars and the very least, you’ll land on the moon” kind of thing. Jeff Sanders: Exactly. Arthur Worsley: I had a friend who messaged me a few years ago now, and he was like, I want to run the Marathon des Sables, which is the ultra marathon in the Sahara Desert, five days with a kit on your back. I’d never even run a half marathon, it was a good excuse to spend time with friends. So I was like, yeah sure, I’ll do that with you. Again, having never done it, I ended up running like three marathons back to back, double marathon, marathon, half marathon, over the course of five days. You never would’ve achieved that if you hadn’t aimed higher. In those instances, and I’m sure your Leadville goal, there’s this idea of guiding stars and distant shores. It’s also okay to set really big goals and not hit them, which I think is really important because sometimes the goal is something that you won’t ever achieve. Sometimes it’s just something you want to aim towards because it sets the course of what you want to be doing. So even if you never run the Colorado ultra marathon, it’s changed your life, in terms of your keystone habits, and all those kind of things, it set the pace for your world. Jeff Sanders: Yeah, certainly. It’s one of those that I… When I first discovered this idea that I could even pursue big goals, I didn’t even believe that was even a thing. It was like a weird transition that I made in my 20’s where I started to think a whole lot bigger, in a way that I never had before. Once I started discovering that there are amazing people, doing amazing things, and that I could also be one of them, that was a revolutionary thought. Then all of the sudden, it changed all the goals I began to set, all of them are huge, all of them are way bigger than before. Because of that, I began to make a lot of progress and I fell in love with that process of just seeing myself improve and tracking that progress over time. Then reinforcing that, that’s possible to continue, it’s an addictive process to get things done, but do so in a way that you can physically see, that you’re improving. I find that whole process to be so fascinating. Arthur Worsley: Can you take us back to that moment where you realized? Was there a book you read? Was there a goal that you set that kicked it all off? Jeff Sanders: I wouldn’t say it’s a specific time, there was a time period, kind of right after I graduated college where I had launched my first blog. I wrote my first book at this point, it was called Graduated and Clueless. It’s a book no one’s ever read and no ones ever going to, but it was a book that, for me, was… I was reading a lot of books, listening to podcasts, learning a lot, and then just recording my thoughts on paper and trying to get those things out of my head. It was in that process that’s really, I think, a therapeutic aspect of writing where you just kind of get those cobwebs out of your head and onto paper. It clarified so much for me about who I was and what I wanted and, for me, that’s when I began to really solidify… Here’s a path in life that I could really get ahold of and one I can really enjoy doing. Prior to that, it was mostly just a lot of like, well, I can do anything and everything’s possible. But that attitude doesn’t lead to anything, it just leads you to be more confused. I really wanted to figure out which paths in life can I go down, and excel at, if I were to commit to those. Arthur Worsley: I’d say you did a lot of journaling, writing down on paper, and there’s a magic between the pen and the paper. To be able to actually write those thoughts down, you found that a useful exercise. Jeff Sanders: That, for me, has been a huge just ongoing. The podcast itself I have now, was born of the blog, and the blog was only there because I wanted to write down, really everything I was thinking about. So I have hundreds of articles I’ve written over the years, that I’ve since deleted because no one should read those things ever again, they were terrible. At the time, they were really important and they were helping me to make that next connection so I could then move onto the next one. So for me, writing, and journaling, and blogging, whatever you want to call it, however you do it, that process is so important to understand your own voice, and your message, and what you believe in. All of those things come out, and then all of the sudden, you have a greater sense of who you are. That’s, for me, where the podcast came from, where many of my ideas came from, my belief systems, came from me just thinking out loud on paper. Arthur Worsley: I love it. I think you’ve tapped in, as well, to one of the things I wanted to talk to you about today since you’ll have lots of ideas, is procrastination. It’s been something I’ve seen a lot of people procrastinate, the reason is because they’re afraid of doing something which is crap. The first draft of everything is crap, the only way to version 100 is through version one. I love that you… It’s okay to write a ton of articles and then delete them. People start blogs and publish, it’s going to be there forever. There’s this thing, where I look back at my earlier articles, I’m like, oh god, I can’t believe I published that and put that online. That’s okay, you know? I’m sure there are podcast episodes where you’re like, maybe I should just delete that podcast episode. Jeff Sanders: Even right now, I’m working on an audio course. So it’s a 10 episode audio course, and it’s one where I’ve recorded the first three episodes. I deleted all three of them and re-recorded all of them two times because all of them needed to be improved. I’m like eight years into podcasting and I still have to go through those rough drafts to figure out how I want to say this in the way that I really want to, that could be published, that could be out there. The first draft is never the one that gets published because I don’t want that to… That doesn’t define you, it just defines your first initial thoughts. If you can improve upon those and layer up from there, well all of the sudden everything is a whole lot better. I’m also amazed at the growth process that takes place, even from the first draft to the second draft. You can just see all these connections taking place that, the first time through, would never be possible to see. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, absolutely. The same is true of goals, right? People get very worried because they’re like, when I put this goal down on paper, I’m committed to it. But the first time you write a goal down on paper, it’s the first draft of that goal. You can rewrite that. It’s one of the reasons I love, I think 90-day planning is important, I’m wary of physical planners is that make you write down the 90-day goal at the start of the 90-day process because the goal is constantly evolving. By the time you’re three weeks into the goal, it’s changed and then you’re stuck with this goal that you wrote at the start of the planning. You don’t believe it anymore, you’re like, what do I do. I think it’s a very powerful message and it’s so easy to see people like you who are fantastic at what you do now, having done this for seven years and think, they must get it right the first time, every time. Everyone who’s good at something was once bad at it, and B, even as a professional, you’re constantly making first drafts, second drafts, third drafts, fourth drafts. What people see is not an ad hoc, even when it looks spontaneous, that’s the new fashion with videos online. It’s usually the fifth or sixth time that videos been recorded, if not more. That’s pretty hectic. Jeff Sanders: There was a story I heard years ago, that the actor Anthony Hopkins, from Hannibal and a lot of other movies, too. He would read the script 250 times before he would go perform a single line. So he was literally memorizing the entire script, not just his lines, but every single character’s lines in the entire movie. It was just this commitment to professionalism that I had never seen on that scale and that really showed me well, if that’s what it takes to be Anthony Hopkins, or to be on that level, well then there’s a lot more work for me to do. But it also gives me the liberty to make a lot of mistakes along the way. I think this accepting mistakes is part of the process, is a huge leap forward, or holding yourself back because you’re fearful of making mistakes. It has to be part of it if you’re not willing to look goofy and feel stupid. That was a part of my theatre background, there were so many times where I would do a monologue, or a play, or a skit and I would get just destroyed in the reviews, there were just people tearing me apart. I would just take those notes and go do it better the next time. That’s what it takes to get better and if you’re not willing to engage in that process than it probably means you’re doing the wrong thing because the thing you want to do, you’re probably willing to make mistakes in because you love doing it. To me, that’s been a big other connection is when I enjoy what I’m doing, I love podcasting, or whatever, I’m willing to make mistakes because it’s part of what I want to do. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. It ties into another thing, something I’m thinking about at the moment, I’m curious to get your thoughts on it. Initially, we talk to people about setting goals, we talk about healthy habits. Healthy habits are hard, initially, getting to the gym the first time, getting off to that first run, going out and still running when it’s raining outside, or… There’s this point where… You make this great point about doing something you love because then you’re more likely to make the mistakes, to do all the things, but there’s also this thing where you have to push uphill sometimes, you have to push uphill. When you set big goals, one of the reasons people shy away from them is because it creates this cognitive dissonance. A, where you are, and B, where you want to be, and that creates an elastic tension which pulls us towards our goal. It can be very uncomfortable, especially when you set your goals too large, it can make you feel helpless. You wake up every day, you feel like you’re not making progress. Have you experienced that? When you have experienced that, how have you dealt with that? Jeff Sanders: I think that really speaks to how I became a runner in the first place. So when I was in college, I was running most just to lose some weight, feel healthier, I wanted to get back in shape. As I began that process, I got to a point one day where I ran a three-mile run and it was the first time I’d done three miles in a long time. Which, for someone who runs a long distance, three miles is basically a warm-up, but if you don’t ever run at all, three miles can feel like an eternity. I made this breakthrough moment at three miles where I thought, I can do four, I can do five, maybe. I got to the fifth mile, it was about a week later, I did a five-mile run. First time in my entire life, and on that day I was like, I can do a marathon. It just clicked in my head, I hit a threshold, I crossed over this bridge of an obstacle that I had in my mind. I proved to myself that if I can do these incremental improvements, that I can just keep that pattern going indefinitely, or until there’s a reasonable place to stop. I got to that point where I realized I can do a lot more than I thought that I could, but I only believed in that once I had already been making progress towards it. So if you sit on the start line and think, I can’t get to the finish line, well no, because you’re on the start line. You have to go somewhere first and start the process, and that’s when, for me, I get those mental connections and that belief system in myself to then push forward further. Arthur Worsley: I love it. You give yourself an experimental or trial period where it does feel a little bit uphill, and you are doing stuff, but I think there comes a point where, if it doesn’t feel suddenly like it flips and you’re like, okay, the enthusiasm is building. We talked about that experiment, maybe something else is the right thing to do, maybe you’re not born to run, maybe you should go try dancing, maybe you should go try some other exercise or hockey or whatever it is you want to do. Jeff Sanders: Yeah, I think that’s a big part of it, too. There are plenty of things I’ve done in the past. I played baseball as a kid and I got to a point where… I was probably 12 years old or so, and there were some kids who were growing up faster than others, so they started pitching the ball like 100 miles an hour in my face. I remember thinking, this is not for me, I don’t enjoy this, I’m not having fun in this process. So I changed sports and did so again, and again, and again until I began to figure out what I was naturally good at and what I felt compelled to do. It wasn’t until, probably, my mid-20s or so, that I really discovered running trails as being one of the things that I actually loved more than anything else. So for me, to be in the woods, hiking, running, backpacking, camping, all of those kinds of activities, make me feel more at home. So if I can lean towards those as often as possible, then I don’t think of it as a challenge. The actual physical uphill climb, is fun for me, I like that challenge, but if you are doing something, you committed to a goal where that uphill climb sounds awful and you don’t enjoy any of it, it’s probably not a good fit versus one where you see the challenge and it actually makes you excited. You’re thrilled to take it on, that’s what I want. I want to look forward to the work that I’m doing, look forward to the goals I set because the challenge of doing so sounds enticing, it doesn’t sound scary. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, absolutely. I think excitement is something that’s very often underrated. Even being excited to tell people about what you’re doing, or using equipment that you are excited to use because you wake up and you love, or a computer that you enjoy, or a desk chair that you love, or whatever it is. Anything that gets you excited about the work you’re doing, that gives you energy, is how you create a… It’s a perpetual motion machine, otherwise, you just run uphill the whole way through. Jeff Sanders: That’s agreed, too. It’s like even with podcasting, when I first started it, I spent more money on my podcast equipment than I had spent on anything at that point in my life. I was really nervous that I just overspent and oh no, why’d I buy all this expensive gear I don’t understand, but I used that gear for the first seven years of the show. Then, literally, just three months ago, I did a complete studio overhaul, bought all new gear, reinvested exponentially more money than I did in the beginning because I proved to myself that this is my future, this is what I love to do. To your point, I walk into my studio, which I call a studio now, not just a home office, I walk in, I’m like look at all this cool gear that I get to use every day. Isn’t this amazing? If you can feel like that, then work is more like a game, it’s more just a fun activity and then, when you’re growing, it’s just this amazingly interesting process, it’s not some toil and trouble and difficult challenge. It’s like, I get to go do this today, I’m excited to do this today. If you’re at that point, that’s such a great indicator that you’re doing what you should be doing. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, I think that happens at three different levels, as well. There’s sort of the why, the what, and the how. The most basic level, if the what is to get healthy or to make money, or whatever it is, and you’re just not excited by that goal, it might not actually be the goal that’s got anything wrong with it, it might be how you’re approaching it. So if the goal is to lose a certain amount of weight, and you’re trying to do it by running every single day and you hate every second of running, then instead of changing your goal the first thing to do is experiment with a lot of the how’s. Maybe try, you can talk about intermittent fasting in a minute and something I’m excited about. Then, if you try a lot of stuff, maybe it’s the what that’s not working and if the what is not right, maybe you need to think about the why, the motive that’s behind it. I think that’s a really cool idea. Talk to us about… So one thing that people here in Barley are very interested in, is nutrition, diet, everybody has an opinion. I have one friend who’s a bodybuilder who eats nothing but fruit, and I have another friend who’s a bodybuilder who eats nothing but meat, and never the twain shall meet. They both insist that the other is poisonous and will kill you. You have a plant-based diet, is that right? Jeff Sanders: That’s correct, yeah. Arthur Worsley: Fully plant-based or are you also eating a little bit of meat during the week? Jeff Sanders: No, I’ve been a strict vegan for over 10 years. So it’s been my thing. Arthur Worsley: Was it Scott Jurek who inspired you or was it just something that you decided to take on yourself? Jeff Sanders: The story of where it started was, my wife and I had just gotten married and we decided to buy a puppy. We took the puppy to the pet store, and the pet store owner asked us which food do you want to buy for your brand new dog. I said, without thinking, whatever the best food is you guys sell. Then I thought, instantly, I don’t do that for myself, I don’t eat the best food, at the time I didn’t even know what the best food was. I was just very not thinking about food, it was very mindless for me, I was just eating whatever I wanted. So, at that point, I decided I’m going to research food, I’m going to read books, watch documentaries, talk to people, ask questions. It was about six months into that process that I decided to try becoming vegetarian and then, about two months into that, I decided to pursue being vegan. So for me, that process of just doing those personal experiments, learning a lot, asking a ton of questions, led me to realize that, that was going to fit me well. I philosophically believed in it, I was nutritionally loving all the food I was eating for the first time, and it just fit. 10 years later, I’m still doing it, but it wasn’t something that I thought would happen. I just knew that, if I learned more, if I dig into this, I can compile all the data and see what it tells me. That was my approach and it has worked out ever since. Arthur Worsley: I love that. I think what’s inspiring about that story as well is, there’s obviously a huge benefit in terms of the animal welfare, and things like that, but your story comes from a place of excitement and things getting better, rather than face a fear of feeling like I shouldn’t, I can’t, or I won’t. My personal experience, as well, has been that eating a plant-based diet has been very beneficial for energy, it’s a really fascinating thing to do. Tell me about- Jeff Sanders: One of the things I’ve seen over the years, too, is that when people hear oh, Jeff’s been a vegan for 10 years, he must be incredibly healthy. The one thing I always say immediately is, just because you’re any diet, does not mean you’re healthy. You can eat Oreos all day and be a vegan, that is not a good choice. There are so many bad foods out there, so really the question is, how do you want to live, what do you philosophically believe in, what do you practically have access to. You combine these elements together and figure out what’s going to be sustainable for me, that I can get behind, that I believe in. To your point there, it’s about abundance, it’s about having more of the things I love, and not thinking about the things I can’t have because it’s not really a can’t. It’s that I want to eat certain things, and I believe in those, and when I get to consume them more often, I feel more like my ideal self. That’s what I want to get to. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, I think a lot of people approach vegetarianism or veganism, however you want to do it, and they think okay, well now I have to eat certain kinds of foods, my options are limited, but actually, for most of us, it’s just that we don’t have the knowledge about what you can eat. There are some incredible vegan and vegetarian restaurants out here that produce dishes and things which taste better than meat. I’ve fallen into the trap of comparing them, they’re not the same. The moment you say fake bacon, you already set yourself up for failure. By having less meat in your diet, it just opens up room on your plate for a whole lot of stuff that you might otherwise not eat. I’m very inspired that you’ve done that in Texas, it’s probably as a foreign thing, but I don’t see Texas as a place where… One time I went to Texas, it was a lot of… Jeff Sanders: I’m in Tennessee, not Texas. Arthur Worsley: Oh, sorry. Jeff Sanders: But it’s very similar, though. Don’t get me wrong. Texas and Tennessee are not that different, it’s the Southern United States which is a very similar culture. It’s very meat-heavy, we’re talking… To be a vegan anywhere in the US, besides the coast, is a very difficult challenge. The East and West coast are pretty open to veganism, the middle of the United States, it is no man’s land for veganism, you don’t exist. The cool thing is, that I started going Vegan here in Nashville and I had so many options then, and there are so many more options today than there ever were. So if your goal is to make a dietary switch, there are so many options and so much you can choose from. So it’s not really a question of do I lose when I change my diet. Once again, what do you gain? How many amazing things can you now do? Lean on those, you see options everywhere. Arthur Worsley: I just finished reading, or recently finished reading, How Not To Die which is a fantastic book- Jeff Sanders: Oh, yeah. Arthur Worsley: … plant-based diet. I was astounded by the, you don’t really think about it, but the gap in how few even doctors are trained in nutrition, and how wide-spread nutrition problem is. We were talking about sugar at dinner last night and how, even these days, when I want a normal Coca-Cola, I don’t really drink it anymore, but I would say I want a full-fat Coke. There’s this idea of a total misalignment with people’s understanding of nutrition. It can be very, very intimidating to become vegetarian or vegan, or even to eat less meat, even if you don’t want to go full plant-based. If I had to pick one book that you think people should read, or one podcast, or one expert they should follow, who would you recommend? Jeff Sanders: I would say the book that I have followed, I think I come back to most often, is The 80/10/10 Diet by Dr Douglas Graham. Which, to your point earlier about the bodybuilder who ate nothing but bananas or fruit, his philosophy on diet is a raw, vegan diet. It’s, what I would call, one of the most extreme diets out there, in terms of the most limitation on paper. It’s also one of those that, if you really buy into his philosophy on how to eat, there are so many wonderful things you can pull from that if you don’t follow the diet he talks about. So, for me, that’s always been this go to, that I want to consume more raw produce, I want more bananas, more broccoli, more tomatoes, I just want more of the healthiest foods that don’t have labels, you can find at a farmers market, you can find at anywhere, an organic farmer down the street. There are people that make amazing food that we can all eat and it makes us feel better. I just want to follow that kind of thinking, it doesn’t mean that I’m going to hold myself to a really high standard because I’ve tried that for a while, and it was kind of exhausting. So it really is that question of what can you handle? What do you want for your life? What fits you well? What’s going to help you to, I guess, become the person you want to become and maintain that as long as you can. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, for sure. I think your point around picking the extreme point of view is really interesting. I think the things that held me back and hold a lot of other back, are two things. One, that it’s going to be a lot of hard work eating less meat because you won’t be able to eat at the same place, that kind of thing. The second is, that it will make you sick or unhealthy. So to be able to have someone who can show you, once you understand that it’s possible, it’s actually quite easy then to cut down the amount of meat. Even if you want to, if you can cut down the amount of meat in your diet because suddenly you realize, it’s both healthy and also fine. There’s a big trend going on out here at the moment with a carnivore diet, where people are only eating meat. It goes and swings around about. Jeff Sanders: I think one of the things, also, it’s interesting is that I did this entire switch by myself. So no one in my family is vegan, none of my friends are vegan, I am still on an island and I have been for my entire journey with all of this. I’ve seen, even with my wife who has recently been changing her diet, if you have people around you who, not only understand what you’re doing but support it and are there to help you along, it is so much easier, it makes the path a lot better. So it’s one of those where, if you can be in a societal group of friends, family, people that will really get behind you, it’s not a massive change, it’s just like well, this is how we eat and we feel good about it. It doesn’t have to be this grand thing, it could just be this is what we do, and then we feel good because of it. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, yeah. It plays back into your experiment idea of, people worry, okay if I say I’m vegetarian or vegan then it feels like a big commitment. You have to make an announcement and launch it on Facebook and set a 180-day goal. The way we did it, is we just tried it for a week and then we were like oh, we actually feel pretty good, let’s try another week, let’s try another week. Six months later, we were still… Oh, I feel great. I think you can experiment and just see how you go and get along with it. Does it make you feel more energetic in the morning? So talking of experiments, you started with intermittent fasting. What kicked that off and how are you finding that? Jeff Sanders: So my brother started doing it about a year ago, and he was telling me a little bit about what he had chosen to do. So I thought, well I can just give that a try because normally, I would get out of bed and have a smoothie and a coffee, first thing, that was my go-to breakfast items. Then I thought well, what if I just held off and didn’t have any food until lunch, or even until mid-afternoon? So that’s what I started doing about three months ago, and it’s a really wacky shift in my head. I would relate that similarly to when I went vegan initially, as a way of the perception that I have about how I should feel, when I should eat, am I actually hungry, how can I push myself further. It’s similar also to, when you’re running because you get into these moments where your brain kind of shuts down on you and you think I can’t do this anymore. Then you have this big, massive resurgence and you feel like okay, I can keep going a lot longer. I find that similar pattern with holding off on food, so when I’m fasting, I’ll get these moments where I feel kind of low, but my body will pick me right back up without actually eating anything. There’s this amazing stores of energy and resources that I didn’t even realize I had in me. So the more that I’m learning about how your body can go a long time without food, and actually, it can be good for you, it’s a weird thing to think that the traditional three meals a day plus snacks, and whatever, is not actually what you have to do. There are other options out there, so if you find a sustainable pattern that’s not that, it could be better. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, definitely I think there’s an interesting self-reflection point. You know, certainly, the most profound experiences that I’ve had in meditation is where I sat long enough to watch an emotional wave come, peak, and then disappear again afterwards. And watching hunger pang turn up, because when you feel hungry you’re like, this is only ever going to get worse especially if you\ve never fasted. At some point, I’m going to murder someone and eat them and then you watch the hunger pang come, then it just disappears. You feel clearer and bright, and the first time you see that in yourself, you’re like, wow, that’s a whole side of I just didn’t even know was there. Jeff Sanders: Totally. There was one thing, you mentioned meditation. I did an experiment about a year or two ago, where I drank some espresso and then I sat down immediately to meditate. My goal was to figure out, can I feel the sensation of caffeine hitting my bloodstream. What I was blown away by, was how intense it was. When I wasn’t meditating, I would just drink some coffee and move on with my day, and I’d feel more energetic and then be fine, but in this experiment, I could feel my body reacting to the caffeine, I was hyper-aware of the changes it was making in my body. I realized, there is so much to my own life I’m just not even aware of, I’m not pausing long enough to think it through and to just be aware of what’s happening. I find that those types of experiences really show me more about how my body actually works, what’s actually possible, and I find those to be just so interesting to see the choices that I’m making, they play out in real, physiological ways. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever tried meditating in a sauna? Jeff Sanders: Yes, I have. Mostly, my saunas that I have access to, are with a lot of other people at the gym. They’re kind of weird, it’s hard to focus with these people around me. I would love to say I could, if I had a solo place to be, but it’s not that common for me now. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, it is tricky. Everyone’s chatting and this and that. If you ever get the chance, it’s another one of those… It’s kind of like your caffeine experiment, where it’s a very controlled way to watch anxiety. I find t a very controlled way anxiety grow because, when you start off in the sauna, you feel fine. Then, as you get hotter and hotter, you can feel your body getting more and more anxious and wanting to escape, it’s that flight response kicks in. So you can just do it again, and again, and again, where you just get in and you’re like, you just watch the flight response go up. In my day-to-day, I found that incredibly interesting because I can then spot those same physiological symptoms if I’m getting anxious about something and pick up on it earlier and be like okay, I actually recognize this. When I’m playing tennis, when I’m doing work]. I recommend that, for sure. Jeff Sanders: Yeah, it’s a cool process to be able just to recognize when you are experiencing those more extreme emotions. When you’re experiencing anxiety, or fear, or dread, or whatever that thing is. To have tools in your toolbox, to calm yourself down, to level back out, or to understand that what you’re experiencing will hit a peak and come back down. Not, like you said, just keep going up and up and get worse and worse. It won’t actually do that, it’s interesting to be able to know what that process really feels like. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, and to spot it earlier to… Again, back to your experiments point, so often we become fully invested in emotion before we even know what’s happened. It’s like just picking a goal and just going for it without actually experimenting with it, the more aware you become… Exactly like your caffeine, the more you can pick up on it earlier, then you can make a choice before it becomes a full-blown mood that ruins your whole afternoon, or whatever it is. You’ll go, I’m starting to feel a bit anxious, so I’m going to move away from whatever it is that’s making me anxious. That’s your afternoon saved or whatever it may be. Jeff Sanders: Exactly, yeah. Arthur Worsley: Tell me, quickly, your… There are two things, which recurrent themes which I found in your book and your blog. The first was, bananas, you’re obviously a big fan of bananas. Tell me what… is it a magical fruit? Is it a miracle fruit? What’s your recommendation to everyone when it comes to bananas? Jeff Sanders: Eat more of them, that’s the number one. Just keep going. It was one of those things where, when I first went vegan, I learned that bananas are an important aspect to nutrition, in terms of athletics. So a lot of athletes eat bananas because it’s about, on average, 100 calories per banana. So you get a lot of energy, a lot of potassium which is important when you’re sweating a lot, you need to get your electrolytes back in your body. So I found that bananas were really helpful, and I also realized there was this kind of perception in our world that you could only have a banana a day, one, maybe two a day and that’s about the most. There are these weird assumptions about nutrition that were just kind of in the world, that are definitely not true. There are so many times in my life where I’ve just blown those away, and I didn’t get worse, I didn’t die of an illness, I got healthier, I felt better, I had more energy. It’s one of those where, the more food like that, that I can eat, the better I feel and the better I become. So bananas, to me, are just the easiest because they’re so portable, they’re so available, they’re literally available year-round, in every place in the world. So it’s like how could you pass up a banana if it’s literally everywhere? They’re so cheap, and they’re so available. It’s like, yes, I love them, let’s just do more of that. Arthur Worsley: Any fruit that’s got its own packaging included with it, is always a great one. Jeff Sanders: Oh yeah, totally. I’ll say bananas and also, pineapples and mangoes are my other go-to because they’re mostly available year-round. So I tend to eat those fruits more than any other because I know I can find them whenever I need a good piece of fruit. So that’s just kind of my go-to, when I get those in my smoothie, or with a snack, or whenever, it makes my day better. Arthur Worsley: Amazing. My partner Erin has been freezing grapes, have you ever tried frozen grapes? Jeff Sanders: I have not, no. Arthur Worsley: This will blow your mind. So you just get a bunch of grapes, put it in the freezer and then, you just pull them out on a hot day. It’s obviously probably a bit cooler in the US at the moment, but it’s 32 degrees in Bali at the moment. Every little bite of grape, every grape, is a mini sorbet. It has the exact texture of ice cream, but it’s also full of potassium, full of anti-oxidants, all that kind of thing. Super, super healthy snack and very satisfying, so try some frozen grapes. Jeff Sanders: Okay, that sounds great. Arthur Worsley: So big fan, frozen bananas, as well. Talk to me… So you work at home, which is a joy. I’m someone who works from home, as well, and Erin, as well. A lot of people that are working at home right now, and there are two things that I see tend to frustrate them. The first is, distractions. The second is not setting boundaries on their time. I have some friends who worked crazy hours in private equity, and things like that, and they’re now working from home, they’re actually working longer now than they were when they were in the office. It’s obviously something you’ve probably been talking about during the lockdowns and pandemic, and something we’ll all be thinking about in the future, what are your recommendations, first on distractions. How do you keep yourself focused on what it is you’re doing? And then, afterwards, let’s talk a bit about how you set some boundaries to shut the end of the day off. Jeff Sanders: Those are great questions. I experienced that six years ago when I first began to work from home full time, and so for me, the switch to the pandemic life was not a big switch, it was just I don’t leave the house as often as I used to. When I am working, I had to make this big shift about six years ago, where I realized, if I’m in control of my time and if it’s just me all day here, there has to be a sense of rhythm that you lose. If you’re used to commuting to work and you drive to work, or you take the subway, and you get there, there’s a difference in your day. Being at home and being at work are two physically different locations, while in your house, you’re going from your bedroom to your office and it’s ten feet away, it doesn’t feel nearly as a big switch. So you need to have those kinds of transition times, those boundaries that are established. So for me, I want to make sure I have very specific times of my day that are for work, and times that are definitely not. So that really means being very intentional about, here are my top priorities for the day, and here are the blocks of time when those things will take place. For me, what I want to make sure, is those blocks of times are focused. So to your point about distraction, you want to ask yourself, for the task I’m doing, what do I need to do the task and how do I shut down everything else that could pull me away from that? So for me, most of the time that means turn the phone off, block social media on the computer, close my office door, lock it if I have to. Do whatever I can to ensure that, when I’m doing something, that’s all I’m doing. For me, that has made such an enormous difference, in terms of overall productivity because I can get more work done in three hours that I would do in six because I’m completely focused on the activity and nothing else. Then, when it’s time to stop working and hang out with the family, well then I’m totally present to be hanging out with them because the work is already done. So that’s what I want to get to, is these rhythms of when I’m working, I’m working and when I’m not, I’m not. If you don’t have that kind of separation, then you could do it, you just mentioned, work literally all day, every day because why not? The computer’s already here anyway, but that’s just such a dangerous, slippery slope to literally have no real, true sense of when you’re working and when the work is done. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, that’s very cool. I think there are two things I’ve seen from people who do this well. First is, they tend to set up a separate space because we’re very cue triggered. If you work on your dining room table, and you put your laptop out all day, and you’re working, and then you shut down for the evening, but then you go and have dinner at your dining room table, it’s so easy to pull out your laptop and check emails, or whatever it is. So I notice you have a home office that you work from, your studio. Do you try and do all of your work in one place, and then keep that just for work? Is that one of your strategies? Jeff Sanders: Yeah, essentially. This is the place where the vast majority of what I do, gets done in this room. Then, when I leave, I’m not doing the stuff anymore. So if I can separate it off and literally wall it off, it’s a whole room by itself, that I don’t have to think about work when I’m in the kitchen, or the dining room, or living room. I don’t want my whole life to feel like it’s all the same because that’s a real sameness that takes place when work, and home, and family, and Zoom calls all become one thing, then your life feels really mushy. Life, I think, is better when you have distinct and discreet areas of, I’m at the gym and I’m working out now, now I’m at the grocery store and I’m buying food. You would go somewhere and you do something different, that gives your life more of that sense of the day has variety. If you don’t have that built-in, it’s just so easy to get into a mental rut and everything feels the same. Then, what will happen, is over time, you’ll just get exhausted. You’ll get fatigued by the experience, your overall productivity levels will drop and you just won’t feel as good. So I like to have that variation built in to make sure that I have that sense of, now I have a new activity, let’s go do that, and you get jazzed for that next thing. Arthur Worsley: I think there’s definitely something… I’ve always thought of the cues as… It means you get sucked in, but I think the way that you talked about it there triggered for me an idea of also decision fatigue. This idea that if you just keep one place for one thing, if you do everything in one room, then when you walk into that room, you kind of have to think to yourself, okay what am I doing now? Whereas, when you walk into your office, when you walk into your bedroom when you walk into your dining room, there’s just one thing that you do in that place, you don’t have to think about it. It’s just automatic, you can get on with it, enjoying the process. Jeff Sanders: I had the same thought when I joined the gym here in Nashville about three years ago. Prior to that, I was working out from home. In my garage, I had a few pieces of weights, and I was trying to work out there, but even in my garage, I was distracted by my neighbours walking by, or just my daughter being at home. So I went to the gym, it was all the sudden, when I walk into the gym, there is one thing to do and that’s work out. Nothing else happens here besides exercise, and when that kind of clarity is there, it’s amazing that with that one hour I’m there, I’m working out the entire time. Then I leave and it’s over. That kind of focus doesn’t exist in most places, but you can have that same mentality of when I go here, I do this one thing and then I leave. Well then, that one thing is just so much more valuable and it’s so much more value is extracted from that time. Then your life has more meaning, I think because you know what you’re doing when you go somewhere. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, yeah. Very cool. So that was the first thing was physical distancing, physical space. The second thing that I see people who do this well, and I’m sure you do this, as well, is creating a cognitive space where there are specific behavioural cues. So for example, you get to 6 PM and you go to the gym, or you start cooking dinner, but what you do is you book in these bookends of time that, in your brain, become a very clear transition moment from A to B. Do you have an end of work shut down? Or is there something where you get to the end of the day, you’re like I know this is the end of my workday, and just shut it off? How do you deal with that? Jeff Sanders: Yeah, for me, I’m very intentional about my evening routine because I know that, if I want to wake up early, I have to go to bed on time. I know my own tendency is to keep working because I love what I do, I could work until midnight, or later, and I do sometimes, then I get mad at myself because I know that’s not going to work. To that point, what I usually like to do is have a very clear evening boundary. So if I got to bed around 10 PM, I want to have the evening boundary about two hours before then. So for me, 8 PM is a typical cut off where I want to say, at that point, turn off the computer, turn off the phone, don’t have those visual distractions that are there and commit to finishing my work for the day prior to that, to wrap up and plan the next day and shut it down. Then I can just do the evening routine, which is usually eat some food, talk to my wife, go to bed. It doesn’t have to be that much of a massive transition, but it has to be clear that I was working, and now I’m not. There’s a line in the sand that I drew to cut that time off, if it’s not that clear then you do what I was doing, you work until midnight because why not? I’m just here anyway, but that pattern is destructive. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, very cool. Again, that works both ways. I’ve found in the pandemic, there are two kinds of people. There are those who really struggle to do any work, and there are those who literally can’t stop working. Creating boundaries, creating clear, physical boundaries, you talked about some great things like shutting your phone off… I’m curious, people always ask me, and my way of dealing with social media is just I deleted social media and don’t have any of it. When you mute your social media, what do you do? Do you use a specific app? Or is there some way that you do it? Or you just shut down Explorer? How do you do it? Jeff Sanders: Yeah, so when I’m working on my computer, which is kind of most of my work, if the phone is a distraction, I’ll put it in airplane mode, like it is right now during our call. So the phone itself can’t actually distract you with notifications. I also, on the computer, use an app called Freedom which will intentionally block different, either websites, or applications, or whatever it is you want to block. For me, it’s usually just social media sites that I’ll block for a few hours while I’m working because I know my tendency is, if I’m going to talk a mental, challenging aspect of my work, I’ll try to avoid it by looking at Facebook, or I’ll avoid it. It’s just a typical thing like, you know what, that’s kind of hard right now, let me just look at the news real quick. Those kinds of tendencies can be so easily overcome by simply having a blocker that reminds you, no, no, no, get back to work, buddy. Don’t do what you said you were going to do, get back to that thing. All of the sudden, you can reinforce the better behaviour to stay focused, even if you still keep your apps on your phone, you can block them for a little while and, during that time, you know if you’re focused, you’re actually focused. That, to me, is a really big deal. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, I always say to people that friction is the enemy of action. That cuts both ways, so instead of thinking of myself as the water that’s flowing down the hill, I think of myself as someone who just moves little pebbles. My goal is to take pebbles out of the course of the stream where I want it to go and put pebbles in the way of the course of the stream where I don’t want it to go. However, you can do it, creating little friction, giving a passcode to someone else, sending yourself something in the post, whatever you can do to just create… It’s not a negative thing, it’s not about restricting yourself, or punishing yourself, it’s just making it slightly harder to do the stuff that you don’t want to be doing, and making it slightly easier to do the stuff… I’m sure you don’t have many snacks in the fridge, but you probably keep a lot of bananas on hand. Jeff Sanders: Well, to that degree, one thing I try… This was probably seven years ago when I had my last day job, I took what I call my produce bag to work. So most people might have a lunch box, or they’ll have their food for their lunchtime period, what I would bring was I called my produce bag because all I put in there were grapes, and strawberries, and bananas, and blueberries, and that was all that was in there. My rule for the day was, if I’m hungry, I eat this. That’s all I get access to, I can’t go out to lunch, I can’t borrow food, what I brought, is what I eat. So I use that same pattern at home, especially during those times when I’m not being very good with my diet, is I will pack a produce bag, I bring it to my office right here, and then that’s what I eat for the day, it’s right next to me. So the temptation to snack, or to cheat, or whatever, doesn’t really exist if you give yourself a focused way to operate, but you know that if you make a choice in that right arena, it’s a healthy choice. You already predetermined it was what you wanted, then all of the sudden, the guesswork goes away, that feeling of anxiety about what should I eat tomorrow, no, no, it’s right there. Just eat it and that’s it. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, I love that. It’s the opposite of the Freedom thing, you’ve made eating a healthy snack the easiest course of action. Human beings are lazy. So just designing your day to constantly make the behaviours that you want to keep doing long term, the easiest course of action, is actually just one of the most powerful things you can do. I know you write a lot about habits, I always get to the end of these conversations, I wish I had an extra hour to talk about stuff. Maybe we’ll have to do another one or I know we’ll be talking again on your podcast later in the week, but if you had to pick… Obviously, your book is called The 5 AM Miracle, but in the FAQs it says, do I have to get up at 5 AM? And your answer is no, you don’t have to get up at 5 AM. I say the same thing, by the way, in my masterclass. 5 AM is the bomb, if you can get up early then it’s the best thing. If you had to pick two or three healthy habits, let’s go back to the 18-year-old version of you that’s just about to start college, and you were like, these are the two or three keystone habits which you just build them for this year, what would you pick? What would your productivity and health habits be? Jeff Sanders: I think one of the things, the reason why I got so attached to early mornings because I saw this immense power in beginning the day intentionally. If you can have some wins early in the day, it sets the tone for the rest of the day to be that much more successful. As a counter-example, if I wake up late, and I’m stressed out and I’m tired, and then I try to go do hard things, they’re way too hard, my brain is not able to handle that. If I wake up intentionally, with a plan, then when I get to the hard thing, it’s not nearly as hard and I’m ready to tackle it. So for me, the core thing I want to do is wake up intentionally, whether that’s at 5 AM or 7:30, it doesn’t matter, but you wake up at a time that you predetermined was the best time. Then, when I get up at that time, I like to do, either early morning run and or have a smoothie because, generally speaking, right now I do intermittent fasting, but when I wasn’t doing that, it was… I wanted to start off the day with healthy nutrition, and energy, and fitness, and movement, and if the healthy aspect is the first thing I focus on, then I have the energy to go do the work. Then I’m able to go focus better. If I don’t prioritize health first thing in the day, it’s very easy to not do it later. Everyone has different energy cycles of when they feel best, I’ve done lots of seasons where I’ll go to the gym late in the afternoon when I’m too tired to work anymore, and that can work well, too. You have to figure out when it works best for you and stick to that pattern. For me, I know if health is a priority, I’m going to get more done because I’m healthier. If I have more energy, I got better sleep, I ate better food, things work better. So the core, for me, is wake up intentionally, plan my morning to have that health explosion first thing, and then when that’s the case, the rest of the day is going to be so much better. Arthur Worsley: Cool, so the habits would be set an intentional time of day that you’re going to wake up, have a plan for the morning which is one of the most important things, and I guess, prioritize that healthy habit at one point in your day, whether it’s first thing in the morning or later on. Jeff Sanders: Yes, exactly. Arthur Worsley: When you do your planning, do you do it in the morning? Or do you do it the night before? Jeff Sanders: The night before, usually. So when I end my workday, I’ll try to look at what’s tomorrow’s schedule going to look like and then I always will re-do my calendar. I have a weekly review process where I’ll set the calendar for the week, but it never stands that way. I re-do my calendar every single day because I change my mind on what I want to do, and when I want to do it. I find with that as long as the core things that have to get done, are getting done. So every night I’ll plan the next day, re-do the calendar, next morning get up, and then follow the calendar from there. Arthur Worsley: Yeah, very cool. That’s a great tip, I love that. Jeff, it’s been awesome talking to you. I did say on our emails before, I don’t think we’re… I have literally a thousand more topics we could discuss. For anyone that’s listening, Jeff’s clearly a super interesting guy, anything from all the self-development and productivity stuff, I resonate with a lot of the things you said, I teach many of the same things. The podcasting, the health habits, the ultra running, I was looking through your podcast list, so many great guests on there, on The 5 AM Miracle podcast. I would probably start with your podcast and go and listen to that because that’s your baby, I guess. The thing you most focus on and which will point you to the other things. Is there anywhere else that people should go to learn more about you? Or what would you say if they’re interested in Jeff, and they’re like, I like this guy, his way of thinking, what’s the first step they should take to learn more? Jeff Sanders: The website JeffSanders.com is the home base for everything I’m working on, so you can discover all the things I’m currently doing. The podcast is the best way to consume quick, free content. The 5 AM Miracle book, though, really breaks down a very specific way to structure your life and get your goals accomplished. I think that’s probably the best place to begin if you really want to dig in now, and re-do your calendar, and re-do your goals. I feel like that’s the best place to start. Arthur Worsley: Awesome, cool. So The 5 AM Miracle book, and I’ll put links in the show next to all of these things. So not to worry, or if you’re listening to this somewhere you can’t see the show notes, then yeah, JeffSanders.com. Just search for Jeff, you’ve got one of those great names that’s… I’ve always wished I had a one-syllable, two-syllable surname because they always sound great, whereas I have very silly, posh English name. Thanks so much, Jeff. Really appreciate it and we’ll be chatting again later in the week, for The 5 AM Miracle so, if you want to listen to the second half of this conversation where Jeff asks me structured questions about things or we talk about whatever’s interesting to us, then you should listen in on that, as well. I’ll look forward to speaking to you again soon. Jeff Sanders: Okay, sounds great. Thank you. Arthur Worsley: Take care, Jeff. Bye. Jeff Sanders: Bye.
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